Timing belt+water pump

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Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:12 pm

Hi guys! Had a problem with the car(gen 1, 2.0 se) last week (broke the thermostat housing) and after a closer inspection I discovered the water pump was all rusty, the pulley was moving in all directions etc. So I decided to change it. After giving it serious consideration if I should do it myself or take it to a garage, I decided i'll give it a try. so, i took everything out with piston 1 at TDC and changed the pump. I put everything back, aligning the camshaft sprocket (the hole to the red sign behind it). Now, that left the other 2 marks not quite horizontal. Is that how it's suppose to be or it was just an illusion because of the engine being still jacked?
Another problem (for me) would be the fact that the only mark that I could find near the crankshaft sprocket sits at about "11 o'clock", not vertical like I would have expected it. Anyway, after aligning and fitting the timing belt, I gave it 2 revolutions to see if everything is ok(someone recommended that). I couldn't feel any kicks or hear weird noises and it moved freely (making me think it's ok ). Now, I still have the engine mount, upper cover etc to fit. But I would really like to verify that what I've done is OK (with the aligning I mean) because I wouldn't want to start the engine and end up with catastrophic results. So, could anyone who know how to do this confirm that those are the proper marks or point me in the right direction. Many thanks, Mike
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:56 pm

Ok. things just get weirder. I put everything together and started the engine. Everything well. After 10 min, I took it for a quick ride. It overheated again :shock: . I also noticed that there is no hot air coming from the heater. So, I pop the bonnet and check the pipes for the heater core. one was hot, the other one cold. So I think to myself that it must be blocked. So I tried to take it out (not an easy job) but after that I had a quick idea. So i just took the hoses out and flushed it a bit through one pipe. Clean water coming out. When I tried the other one, the water came out dirty, looking red like rust. I kept flushing it till clean water came out. Then, put the two hoses back and gave it another try. It still overheated but not as quick as before. I couldn't check if there is hot air coming through the blower (the dash is still out) but both pipes get hot now. Anyone got any ideas on this problem? I want to mention that there is no thermostat in the car so I can eliminate a faulty one. It's got no mayo, a bit of smoke but smells very rich (must be because I have the manifold cracked and probably the O2 sensor doesn't get an accurate reading). Tomorrow I will try flushing the radiator to see what comes out of that but not to many hopes. Please help before I call it quits and scrap the car (my wife would love that :cry: ) .
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby automattick » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:41 pm

have you got no thermostat in the car or do you mean you put a new thermostat in, why would you not put a thermostat.

Could it possibly be due to air locks in the system, im unsure if that can cause it to overheat but maybe there was a large air pocket and it moved which meant your coolant was low causing overheating.

Considering you just did the job yourself id assume you'd have checked for air locks etc so probably not the problem.

Otherwise incorrectly fitted or faulty water pump may cause it, didnt leave a rag in the pipes to stop drips did you.

Just a few things that i would look at if it was mine.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:24 pm

It doesn't have a thermostat because I saw in several posts that when that is faulty, it's enough to just take it out and see if it still overheats so just thought if i leave it like that it's easier to diagnose the actual problem. I kept it running and added coolant + the coolant level is the same after everything (both in radiator and tank). The thing is the previous owner added some leak-sorting substance in it. A few days before it started overheating I flushed the system with some cleaning chemical. I wonder if it's possible for that substance to build up in a certain place and when I put the cleaning thing I just knocked it from that place and left it flowing in the cooling system until it just found a hole to small to pass. And when pressure builds up, it just doesn't let the coolant flow as it should? How could I do a "reverse" flush on the system?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Rotatus » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:41 pm

You have done a good job of diagnosing this problem yourself.

You need to remove the water hoses and flush the engine and the radiator back and forth with a garden hose until the water runs clear, refit the hoses and refill and give it another try. Good luck.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby automattick » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:54 pm

hmm, there must have been a reason for the other person to put a leak sorting substance in and now perhaps your cleaning chemical or you with the flushing has cleared the stuff away revealing the original problem.

You could try putting in something similar i think its called radweld or something to try and reseal the hole BUT more importantly where is this problem and its probably best to get it sorted in the long run.

If you havnt used the car or started it up much since this problem then perhaps it is the head gasket and it hasnt had enough time to build up the mayo just a thought. i hope it isnt hg though.

If you cant get to the bottom and it only started since you flushed it with the chemical try and put it back to how it was before you flushed and cleaned using something like the radweld or similar.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:09 pm

I know what the old problem was. The guy only used water in it, right? no antifreeze, just WATER. So that f**ked the thermostat. A friend of his came round and took a look. The smart ass removes the thermostat but cracks the thermostat housing. He put that together with quicksteel but didn't tighten it to much (so that it would hold where it was "glued") but he had a small leak. So he got 3 cans of that substance and put them in. That stopped the leak but.... come on... 3 cans (what an idiot) plus he left the water with all that inside. After a while it started overheating again. That's when i bought the car of him. Just cleaned the whole thing and put a new thermostat and thermostat housing on it. After 3 months and 5000 miles it started overheating. that's when i put the cleaning thing in it. Now, could this be hgf that was somehow masked by them 3 cans of god knows what? What's the best way to test for hgf? without driving it too much to avoid a certain hgf that is....
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby automattick » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:19 pm

If that was the original problem and you've replaced with new parts then it should have been fine, dont see why it would still be overheating. Perhaps all that crap he put in effected how well the engine cooled ( filling the coolant lines with gunk ) and ultimatly making the hg go or due to the amount of times the car has overheated then it has finally given up. this is just my guess work mind, best person to get in touch with is ross at tiburon automotive hes in birmingham and is so good i travel from swansea to see him.

ross's site

some of the other guys will be able to help you more on this, but i look for mayo on the oil cap which is really thick and crusty.

You may get a bit of mayo but it will be slimmy and just a thin layer that is usually due to doing short journeys, and will go after a long run.

What you also should look for is mayo on the dip stick aswell if its there then im pritty sure you have a problem.

It all depends on where the hg may have failed, it can fail where you get coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant but im sure i've read somewhere it can also go where the car burns off coolant but it doesnt mix with the oil, so you'd have to look at the exhaust fumes for this.

Im sure when ross checked mine he felt the coolant hoses to see what the pressure is like after the car is turned off (warm engine) im assuming the coolant hoses should hold pressure and not lose it if it does lose alot then maybe its leaking past the head gasket

A garage will do a test where they check the coolant for exhaust gases thats the best way but be sure you trust the garage or atleast be there to see the result, there is a liquid and it turns a different colour at the presence of exhaust fumes but im sure the other guys can give you more info then this.

Hope im being helpfull.

Chris
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:22 pm

whist you have one pipe hot and one cold, i would completely rule out the suggestion of HGF - it just wouldnt cause failure of water circulating

Its cold because theres no water in that pipe. Sorry to ask the obvious, but have you bled the system? Ie run without the rad cap on at 2000rpm with heaters on full whack? That will force all the air out and should stop the air blocks - which i personally think will be causing the overheating.

Once this has been done, then i would start tracing back - do you get any water loss at all?

If no, then potentially start looking at the water lines -

Put a pressure tester on the rad cap to test the circulation pressure.

you will however runt eh risk of causing head warping if you run overheating (obviously)
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:32 pm

Ok guys. Things just went from sad to tragic. I flushed the radiator a bit. It's still blocked but not overheating anymore. So, I took the car on a test run. Everything ok. Then I look at the oil filler cap and it had lots of mayo on it. I took the car to a garage to get one of those sniffer tests done. Only cost me a fiver but I could see the problem straight away. After I took the radiator cap out and the guy put the tester there he told me to start the engine. Coolant just jumped out of the radiator about 1 meter into the air. Almost scalded the mechanic. That's when I remembered that i read somewhere that if that happens that is the pressure from the cylinders leaking into the cooling system. So, you can probably imagine that the substance turned green instantly and the verdict was the feared one: hgf. I think the hg went while overheating because of the blocked radiator(s). So, now I'm gonna try and take the head off and get it skimmed and put a new head gasket in there. My question is: what other bits could I inspect/change while I have the head off? Mind you that I haven't done this before but I am quite good at mechanics and I'm not in a hurry. Just need some pointers. And maybe anyone knows any documentation that I can use from the internet beside the manual from http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/coupe/service/mechanical.htm. And the final question: do I need any special tools? And if so, where could I get them from? Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Oh arse. I was hoping it wouldn't progress to that..... Was it literally just a blocked rad? I'd fully investigate the rest of the water system before putting back together or you run the risk of it happening again if there is restriction in coolant flow.

Valve stem seals are definatly worth replacing whilst you're there. Cam chain guides and chain also.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:08 am

It was "just" a quarter of the radiator :) plus the heater matrix plus what I got out of the block when I had the water pump off... I met the guy this evening and told him what his miraculous fix lead to in the end. you know what he told me??? "Put some steal seal in it!" I think that's the name. I told him to go.... take a walk :) this car has suffered enough because of his foolishness. I wanna set it straight. I found a Hyundai at a breaker's yard just came in and everything is clean on it. Same year as mine but it's an automatic. Do you think the radiator is the same? And if I skim the head, do I have to adjust anything to compensate the difference between the old position and the new one?

Hey Androo
I just read this http://forums.hyundaicoupe.info/viewtopic.php?t=20221 cause I was looking for a guidance into changing the valve seals. And the thing about back pressure just jumped in my eyes. Can you detail the term back pressure? Is that when the pressure is coming out from the hole? Cause I've got some of that as well. Please enlighten me...
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:07 pm

The only special tools that might be needed are to remove the valve springs - but im not sure on which particular tool would be needed

dont worry about the backpressure - unless youre looking at running the car with just open headers, its something relating to the exhaust system itself.

Keep us updated on the progress
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:54 pm

I was referring to back pressure from the oil filler which could indicate busted piston rings? :shock: True or false?
Anyway, took out the camshaft cover (was surprised to see that even though I changed the oil so many times like.... 7 times in 5000 miles, everything is still pitch black in there and even has some deposits here and there), intake manifold, exhaust manifold (just set it free from the engine because I can't break loose the two bolts that go into the flexipipe), took water pump pulley out, done everything like when I changed the water pump but amazingly, the camshaft pulley CRACKED (I'm lucky it didn't happen while driving). I want to change the timing belt anyway because when I done the water pump I just put the old one back to give it a test so I got a kit ordered. few things that are not to clear to me:
- what type of bolts hold the head to the block (I mean star, hexagon etc)? what do I need to take them out?
- can I take the head off with the camshafts as they are?
- can I reuse the gasket from the camshaft cover?
- how can I clean the camshaft cover (what to use)?
- can I reuse the one from the exhaust manifold? both look pretty good. the one from the intake manifold needs changing because it came out in pieces :)
- don't want to sound like a total idiot but what would be the easiest way to check if the head is warped?
-do I have to strip the whole head if it is warped to get it skimmed? (someone told me about a place that does it for £45)
- I already ordered new head bolts, what other new bits would I need to replace when refitting?
- I have one of those things with three legs that are used to take out pressed items (bearings, stuck pulleys etc). Would that do the trick for the valve seals?
- and last but not least where can I find a cam chain the other bits for guidance? 'cause every part supplier I called said they can not get them. Is that a main dealer only item?
oh and could a moderator change the title of the topic HGF help needed, please?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:43 pm

Oh, I just remembered. The cam chain looks weird. In a certain position, it sits very tight between the sprockets. If i turn it a bit, on the other side it actually hangs down. Why could that be?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Ok,on my phone and tired but I'll answer what I can as I can't see half the post on my phone

Chain and guides are Hyundai only, about 45 quid for both
Inside of engine will be dirty, clean with carve cleaner but wipe away any deposits

Can reuse rocker cover gasket if in good condition

Not sure what You mean on oil filler pressure, if the caps off then it will Solaris everywhere. If rings were worn or gone, expect ble smoke. I'd do a compression test wet and dry.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:00 pm

Yes cams stay in place, but mark up positions well incase of movement

I would personally recommend head skimming as it only takes a fraction of warping to produce leaks, for the cost its worth it for safety.

Not sure if that will do valves, I suspect not, check newtonnet for special tools and general guide.

Exhaust Hawley should be ok, but put back on same way it came off not back to front due to indentations that will be pressed into the sheet.

If You want further info check out rdtiburon.com, yank site but good in depth guides.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:05 pm

Chain should have 5 link gap between sprokets iirc, again check rdtib
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:07 pm

But wouldn't a blown gasket affect the compression test?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:12 pm

It could, depending on where the HG is actually leaking, but without knowing exactly where, it'd be impossible for me to suggest either way unfortunately.

to be honest, i cannot really see piston ring issues arising from HGF, unless you drove silly miles with the temp way above the chart. What mileage is the engine on? Ring failure to my beleif is quite rare on these engines... and its another massive step to replace them. Personally based on that, i wouldnt bother.
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:35 pm

Engine has done 73000 mile. Anyway, took the head off today (found coolant on all pistons)and took the camshafts out. here's the gasket (the arrows mark where it's cracked) sorry about the quality of the pictures...
Image


Here's the head (lots of crap in there)
Image


All the coolant galleries have this color as you can probably see on the gasket too
Image

When I took the head off I found in one of the coolant galleries a piece of sealant, orange, about the size of my thumb :shock:
Now, what I need to know:
- do I have to clean the head before taking it to be skimmed?
- will they clean the crap that's inside the galleries too?
- how can I clean the top of the pistons (they have lots of carbon deposits)?
- will they clean the face of the valve too?
One more thing I found was that one of the bolts that held the head was RUSTED inside. Is that anything to worry about? The head bolts from the exhaust side had washers. Can I reuse those with the new bolts or will they come with their own?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:15 pm

Just found this photo http://blitzrs.snimka.bg/tuning/head-wo ... 5.25292817
and there is a guide on top of the cam chain. I didn't have that on mine. Is that a difference between models or someone just took mine out?
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Joff » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:53 pm

I don't have one on mine
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby Androo007 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:22 pm

I had an upper and lower, but really i would only replace whats there already imo.

You can ask the guys there to chemical clean it - a standard thing that a good head skimming place will do - the fee should be nomimal.

Whilst youre there, if in doubt with anything, replace. Better to spend a couple of quid now and get it right....
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Re: Timing belt+water pump

Postby buhaytza » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:27 pm

Do you mean replace the whole head?
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